Saturday, July 23, 2005

Stockwell Station Shooting Snaffu

London cops killed a terror suspect but now comes word the guy was innocent. It's tragic when things like this happen. Yet when this happens to Israel, it's an international incident -- with calls of severe condemnation showering down upon them like Operation Shock & Awe. Will the same happen to London?


At 9:45 AM, Blogger LASunsett said...

One down, 999,999 left.

At 10:28 AM, Anonymous Jonathan said...

Outstanding point, Esther. Israel has always been held to a double standard.

At 12:18 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

"Yet when this happens to Israel, it's an international incident "

Right on the money. What I can't figure out is why the guy ran the way he did?

At 12:36 PM, Blogger Timothy Birdnow said...

Absolutely right! When terrorists hide inside of the populace, letting women and children protect them while plotting to kill innocents, authorities have to suspect everyone. Anyone acting suspiciously HAS TO be dealt with as guilty, because of the great harm they could do if they are. Israel has always been blamed for defending itself in this fashion.

The London Police did the right thing; the ``victim`` brought this on himself by acting the way he did. There was every reason to believe he was going to attempt mass murder.

At 1:25 PM, Anonymous Rory said...

It sounds as if this man could just have been somebody who was mentally ill, which might account for why he was dressed inappropriately and, perhaps, why he ran away from the police. It's very sad that it turned out he was an innocent victim. But, as it's been pointed out here, when the Israelis kill an innocent person by mistake, the wrath of the whole damned world comes down on their heads. And notice how that terrorist sycophant, Ken Livingstone, didn't criticize the police in any way whatsoever.

At 1:29 PM, Anonymous felis said...

The cops had to waste the guy.
He came out from a place under surveillance.
He started running when he was asked to stop.
If he was innocent it’s just too bad.
You just do not take ANY unnecessary risks in situations like that.

At 1:53 PM, Blogger patrickafir said...

I'm with Jonathan—it's a great point, Esther, and one that will likely be lost on many. It's awful that it had to happen if it turns out that this guy wasn't a splodeydope, but this is the inevtiable result of the West being under siege (again) by the Religion of Peace™. Also, our ethics and rights will be used against us by death cultists when incidents like this occur.

At 2:26 PM, Anonymous Rachel Ann said...

You are so right Esther.
And Israel takes such pains to try and avoid killing an innocent. They have put their soldiers in greater danger to avoid killing an innocent as much as possible.

Who knows why the man ran? He may have been mentally ill or drugged/drunk or perhaps he was engaging in another criminal act. But the police didn't have much choice. Those decisions are split second, and a greater number of lives were at risk.

At 2:31 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...


I hate to bring up the subject of 167. He actually posted on this subject and claims to be more afraid of the police then terrorists. Far left types are just not reality based. Four bombs and a series of smaller failed explosions and he is worried about the police.

At 2:40 PM, Anonymous Jonathan said...

Imagine the outcry if that incident had happened here in the States. Calls for investigations, calls for heads to roll . . .

At 3:38 PM, Blogger Tran Sient said...

Perhaps it should be explained to foreigners that when a cop points a gun at you and tells you to do it. If you don't understand them, don't run.

At 3:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

look baby , i am not here to defend neither israel nor the palestinian nor london's terrorists , i despise them all , but i just would like you to be a fair judge , 60 died in london and the world turned upside down ,everyday dies almost regularly 60 or more in Iraq everyday isreal kills people in palestine , disregarding of their cupability , whether someone is cupable or not is just a point of view ... my point , is as much as london's bombers are terrorists , isrealis and americans are worse , just count the death toll !!!! or now the value of a human being differs from a country to another ?!? does somekind of an equation exist 30 Iraquis worth 1 english?!?!?!? i am not defending anyone , but just for once be fair!!!

At 4:57 PM, Blogger Tran Sient said...

'london's bombers are terrorists , isrealis and americans are worse'

You're courage is striking Anonymous. It is only outdone by you're ignorance. I encourage no one to respond to this, as even giving this arguement your time legitimizes it more than it deserves.

At 5:01 PM, Blogger Esther said...

Baby? My mom and dad, never mind my boyfriend, would ever think to address me that way, lol.

Just for once be fair? Huh? Do you read me often? Eh....

I'd address your comments... well, I'd take you a bit more seriously... if you had the guts to sign your name to your comment. That said, you do sound like you're siding with terrorists, even if you claim you're not. If you can seriously equate what the killer terrorists are doing with what Israel and America's doing, then you're not only wrong, you're several sandwiches short of a picnic.

At 5:04 PM, Blogger Esther said...

Well said, TS. Only I was commenting while you were so I missed yours. ;)

At 5:25 PM, Anonymous Jonathan said...

"equation"? We live in a civilization where people honor and protect innocent life. War has been declared on us by others whose highest calling on earth is to kill as many innocent people as possible. Not exactly quantum physics.

Were you as righteous and vocal after Daniel Pearl? . . . Didn't think so. I'll take my "equation" over your's anyday.

And what's with the "baby"?

At 6:56 PM, Blogger Mark said...

The one thing that disturbs me about this story is why, when he was subdued, the cop still felt compelled to pump five rounds in him.

If I truly believed the guy was wired and carrying explosives under his jacket, I think the last thing I would want to do is fire five rounds into his body indiscriminantly.

Bad shit happens, and tensions run high, but I think there was a high degree of irresponsibility on the cops' part here. And you all know where I stand on this issue.

At 7:16 PM, Blogger SEAWITCH said...

Esther made a valid point in her post, if this had happened in Israel, the world would be condemning Israel and very loudly. The world says nothing against the terror attacks in Israel and loudly denounces it in other countries. There is double standard. One standard applies to Israel and one applies to the rest of the world.

At 8:25 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Your point is valid. Had this happened in Israel--or in the States as Jonathan pointed out-- the media would've been all over it. But give the msm some more time, and then let's see what they make of this incident.

I noticed in the news article to which you linked the following;
"'If you are dealing with someone who might be a suicide bomber, if they remain conscious, they could trigger plastic explosives or whatever device is on them,' Mayor Ken Livingstone. 'Therefore, overwhelmingly in these circumstances, it is going to be a shoot-to-kill policy.'"

Livingstone actually said such a sensible thing? Wonders never cease.

I agree with Timothy Birdnow. The guy should've stopped.

At 8:45 PM, Blogger Mark said...

The guy should have stopped, yes, all I'm saying is there are too many conflicting stories AT THE PRESENT TIME for me to jump on a "if he was innocent, it's just too bad" bandwagon. For example, the story Esther linked says the suspect left a house that was under surveillance. CNN refers to it as an apartment BUILDING. Not the apartment, the whole fucking building. If the cops' surveillance can't pinpoint what apartment the suspect left, how can you all be so sure he "deserved" to be shot? Were you all there?

Esther - Yes, there is indeed a double-standard where events like this are concerned when Israel is involved. I just think, in light of the fact that the suspect was found to be innocent, some modicum of compassion for his plight might be forthcoming, especially since he was a BRAZILIAN, for chrissake.

At 8:51 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Those of you who are Jews should remember the concept of rachmones at times like these.

At 9:13 PM, Blogger Mark said...

And please take this in the spirit in which it is intended, i.e., not as an attack, but as a reminder that I have faith that we are all better than this, and that sometimes emotion takes over.

Shalom, all.

At 9:15 PM, Blogger Tom Carter said...

I agree with you, Esther. Bad things are much less likely to happen to Arab Muslims in the U.S., Britain, and Palestine when they stop murdering innocent people. And the fact is, the number of Muslims who support terrorism is higher than just an extremist fringe. For their own good, the remaining majority need to get their own communities under control.

In case anyone's interested, the police acted exactly correctly when they killed the suspect. Everything he did made him appear to be most likely a bomber, and they didn't just take random shots at his body, from what I've read. They killed him with head shots, which is what's called for to keep him from detonating a bomb or taking any other potentially harmful action. I'm sure leftist apologists for terrorism will start whining about it soon enough, just as they whine about the same police not stopping earlier acts of terror.

At 12:30 AM, Anonymous Rory said...

While I don't think anybody can second-guess the London police right now, yesterday Israeli security forces caught an 18 year-old suicide bomber "after a short chase" according to the reports, after which sappers blew up the bomb belt he had been wearing which contained 5 kilograms of explosives. And this is far from the first time they've been able to apprehend people like this, sometimes just as the human bomb is about to walk into a large crowd of people. Unfortunately, it's probably because they've had so many opportunities to practice.

At 8:05 AM, Blogger drummaster2001 said...

the new London 'shoot to kill' policy they feel is necessary. they justified this by saying terrorists who are so set on blowing themselves up, and are still conscience, would still be able, and would most likely, blow themselves up murdering many, instead of 1. "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." would you rather have a whole slew of people murdered or just 1?

its tragic that in this case the suspected terrorist was really innocent. the police were justified, in seeing as how this man was fleeing the police and ignoring their commands. i also believe i read that he was dressed in extraneous clothing, one more reason he was suspected of being a terrorist.

on your israel point, i agree with jonathan on ALWAYS being held to a double standard.

At 9:06 AM, Blogger beakerkin said...


A simple rule is follow the directions of Law enforcement. I have been stopped where I live at least six times. The persons stupid behavior caused his own death.

As far as my being a Jew the idiotic attitude of people like yourself is to blame. Civil liberties are not intended to be an RX for societal suicide. How many dead are there and you are focusing on the issue of a law enforcement error ? I think vigilant police work should be encouraged and left wing Monday morning quarterbacking should cease.

Rule 1 listen to law enforcement officials

Rule 2 Remember rule one

At 9:19 AM, Blogger Mark said...

Read my comments again. I'm NOT focusing on the law enforcement issue.

At 10:23 AM, Blogger Mark said...

As tpo your comment about left-wing Monday morning quarterbacking, I have taken the stance that any MMQ'ing should cease.

At 10:38 AM, Blogger John Walter said...

The Israeli security forces have ALOT more experience at taking potential bombers alive than do the London Police. For that matter, the Israelis have alot more experience at making judgment calls regarding deadly force-- which almost always takes places in the context of an adrenaline pumping situation.

I agree the Israelis would get about zero benefit of the doubt. I suspect the U.S. would not, either. Remember the incident where a Marine killed a struggling prisoner during the fight at Fallujah?

And I'm waiting for various Brit leftists to wait until the perfect moment to turn on the London cops for political benefit.

At 1:54 PM, Blogger Mark said...

BTW - Beakerkin -

I do not feel that anything I have posted here is deserving of insults such as yours. It is only a reflection of the commentary at your site when you have nothing left to resort to except referring to the measured, reasonable opinions of others as "idiotic attitudes". Further, in light of your using the label "Leftwing" to describe what I merely call a basic human quality, you might want to rethink the bio at your site that you have posted:

"I am a Rudy Republican . The peril of being a moderate is that at times you get hit from both sides. Some say I am at the edge of the great GOP tent. Radical leftists call me a rightwing extreemist.Yet in the end all we can ever be is ourselves."

The content of your site as well as your judgemental attitude beg the question of what, exactly, is your definition of moderate? And if insulting is what you are comfortable being, I suggest you be yourself elsewhere.

Last, I would also suggest you actually peruse someone else's site before passing judgement on their comments.

At 4:00 PM, Anonymous felis said...

"isrealis and americans are worse , just count the death toll !!!! "
Yeah the dead toll but surprise surprise it is not the Yanks and the Jews doing the killing.
In Iraq or wherever but the Jihadists.
Another moral relativist.

"the cop still felt compelled to pump five rounds in him."

You do not have any time to think about somebody's human rights when this person can trigger an explosion with a slight movement of his pinky.
You have a trainfull of people to worry about (just in case you do not care about your own butt).

At 10:00 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

"You're courage is striking Anonymous. "

I have to agree with TS here. Striking.

At 6:33 PM, Anonymous The Consigliere said...

It has been speculated in the media that the victim thought he was being arrested for an expired visa and that's why he ran. No one should die for something so trivial and this is indeed a tragedy. I feel for his family.

I don't know where Mark gets the information about indiscriminate firing of ‘five rounds’. According to the BBC there were 7 shots to the head and one (misfire) to the shoulder.

They obviously thought he was about to detonate a bomb and acted accordingly and with precision. I was first pissed off about an innocent person dying but given the urgency of the particular circumstance I think the actions of the police are excusable.

This London case is different from the ones Israel gets itself involved in. In the London case civilians travelling on the train at that time were in immediate danger.

If Israeli security forces shot a man trying to evade capture in the middle of a crouded Tel Aviv street then I can excuse that.

The IDF on the other hand kills innocent people even when there is no immediate danger to civilians and they do this in Palestine. There is no justification for such action.

At 6:42 PM, Blogger Esther said...

Thanks for visiting my blog and commenting, Consigliere tho I completely disagree with your statement...

The IDF on the other hand kills innocent people even when there is no immediate danger to civilians and they do this in Palestine. There is no justification for such action.

Let's do a hypothetical. Say you're in Jerusalem with your family. The IDF gets intel that there is a bomber headed from Jenin to the exact restaurant that you're going to be at with your family. If he succeeds, you and your family are most assuredly DEAD. But, the IDF got word ahead of time. They know where the bomber is and their only chance to get him is at this location that they know about right this second -- so they send their missle there. And guess what? They get the bomber -- and his three pals... and a kid brother of one of 'em playing nearby. And your family is alive. Still upset with the IDF for killing innocents? How about just saying "thank you" instead.

At 6:49 PM, Blogger Mark said...


"I don't know where Mark gets the information about indiscriminate firing of ‘five rounds’. According to the BBC there were 7 shots to the head and one (misfire) to the shoulder.'

First of all, I never said there were "indiscrinimate shots".

Second, the report of five came from various news reports, and I don't give a rat's ass if it was five, seven, ten or a hundred.

Third, while I initially opined that the police MAY have acted hastily, I am no longer of that opinion thanks to more coverage of the incident and the reasonable discussion of a few of the people here at Esther's and my blog as well. Further, this in no way diminishes my opinion that some of you are really way out of line with regard to your opinion of the victim. You know who you are, and quite frankly, your attitude toward this poor bastard makes me wonder what entitles you to the right to continue to call yourselves human.

Fourth - I wish you would all get the fuck off my ass about this, and I suggest you all take a deep breath, read through some of my blog posts in order to determine just exactly what my stance on the subject of terrorism is before jumping to conclusions.

Fifth - I really have to know, after jumping to all your collective conclusions, did the sudden stop at the end hurt as much as it appears to have?

Sixth - If you feel you must delete this comment, Esther, by all means do so, but I will not sit back and continue to be castigated for things I did not say, opinions I do not espouse, or take any more abuse regarding any comments I have made (none of which, up to this point, have included any insults or blue language) without returning fire. I have fucking had it with the cretins that have been commenting here.

At 7:17 PM, Blogger Esther said...

I try to never delete posts, unless they're a duplicate. Otherwise, it's free speech. If you're brave (or stupid, depending on the person or moonbat, of which you are not) enough to make the post, I'm fine with letting it and everyone else.

I guess I should be paying more attention to this thread but I've been distracted by the events in the post above.

At 7:22 PM, Anonymous Jonathan said...

"The IDF on the other hand kills innocent people even when there is no immediate danger to civilians and they do this in Palestine. There is no justification for such action."

Why should Israel have to wait until her civilians are in imminent danger before taking action? Why should any civilized country?

At 5:13 AM, Blogger The Consigliere said...

Mark: "First of all, I never said there were "indiscrinimate shots"."

Mark (earlier): "If I truly believed the guy was wired and carrying explosives under his jacket, I think the last thing I would want to do is fire five rounds into his body indiscriminantly."

I agree it that it doesn't matter if it's 5, 6 etc. My issue was with indiscriminate.

I'll assume the rest of you comment is not addressed to me.

To Esther: I was just following through some links trying to see what people had done in their blogs. I am new to this whole blogging thing so I wanted to get some design tips etc. I like your header picture. Nicely done.

About IDF going into Palestine and shooting missiles. If they know that the bomber is going to travel to Jenin there are better ways of doing it than missiles. I suspect that the collateral is actually part of an intimidation tactic to avert further attempts.

If there is no other way and they after their act they prove to the Palestinian authority and the public that they had no other option and there is no doubt that the person was about the blow up the restaurant, then maybe, just maybe it is justified.

But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about snipers and others of the occupation forces who show reckless disregard for Palestinian civilian lives. I am talking about Stories like these.

Jonathan: When countries take action that goes against the principles of civilisation they are no longer a civilised nation. Innocent before proven guilty is one of the chief tenets of any just democracy. That tenet should only be bypassed when there is immediate danger as in the London case.

At 9:38 AM, Blogger SEAWITCH said...

the consigliere,

The story you linked with goes to The Guardian. Why don't you use a real news source, you know on that doesn't employ and then fire people linked to terrorist groups?

If that is the only place you know to get news, you are in trouble. Open your eyes to the truth of the terrorist attacks against the citizens of Israel.

At 9:41 AM, Anonymous Rory said...


Perhaps I should start by telling you that in the neighborhood where I grew up in New York City, using a name like that would be enough to put you under round-the-clock surveillance by half the NYPD. But, be that as it may, my first piece of advice to you would be to find some more objective sources for your information about the Middle East than The Guardian. I doubt it could have escaped your notice that for the better part of four years, Palestinian terrorists were literally turning Israel into a slaughterhouse and one of their tactics of choice is for armed gunmen to shield themselves with teen-age rock-throwers. After all, it results in those great photos from the AP and Reuters who always make it appear as if there are only kids throwing stones and no maniacs behind them with Kalashnikovs. But I can guarantee you that nowhere else in the world would any government have allowed its citizens to be murdered indiscriminately for years without an all-out war against the enemy. As an American, I can assure you that if human bombs were sneaking over the border from Canada and detonating themselves all over this country, there'd be no more Canada. And since you mentioned Jenin (the site of that so-called massacre that never happened) the IDF lost more than 20 of its most elite commandos because they chose to fight the terrorists house to house to try to eliminate the possibility of killing civilians. There are so many instances of attempts by the IDF to reduce the number of civilian casualties, but when you have a bunch of genocidal murderers who deliberately choose to hide among women and children, unfortunately, innocent lives are going to be lost in the process.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're basically well-meaning and perhaps somewhat new to this conflict. What I would suggest, however, is taking what you read in some of the mainstream (particularly European) media with a healthy dose of skepticism, particularly because when you don't report the "facts" the way the Palestinian Authority sees them, being a journalist in that neighborhood can suddenly become a much more perilous line of work than you bargained for.

At 9:58 AM, Blogger Esther said...


I addressed some of your comments in my post for today (Tuesday), plus Seawitch and Rory did a fabulous job as well on it.

As for my header picture, I didn't do it -- the fabulous Patrick over at Clarity & Resolve (the link is on the right, with my other links) did that for me. He rocks! And I highly suggest you check out his site. His posts are very insightful (he's researched Islam thoroughly) -- and he's a fantastic writer.

You've dived into a very dicy subject here that many of my fellow bloggers are darn near experts on. I hope you'll keep an open mind and take in what they're saying -- but of course, research it more if you find something troubling.

At 6:06 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Consigliere - My use of the word "indiscriminately" was meant to be taken as a synonym for "without just cause". Perhaps to you it is a misue of the term, I really don't know what the hell your problem with my use of the word is, nor do I give even half of a good g-ddamn at this point. By this I mean, please don't respond. I DON'T CARE.

Your assertions about the IDF show me that you are suffering from chronic rectal-cranial inversion. I have neither the time nor the inclination to try to educate you as to the cure for this condition.

At 8:05 PM, Anonymous The Consigliere said...

Rory: I am glad I don't live in that part of NY :)

Mark: From the context it is obvious to me that you were implying that the police were reckless and were not taking the necessary precautions to stop any explosives that may have been wrapped around the body of the suspect from exploding. I'll paste what you actually said so the others can make up their minds:

If I truly believed the guy was wired and carrying explosives under his jacket, I think the last thing I would want to do is fire five rounds into his body indiscriminantly.

I merely disagreed. I thought the cops acted very proffesionally. Nothing to get excited about.

To Seawitch, Rory and Esther: I've replied re: Israel here.

At 9:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rather than blindingly support the IDF and all their actions in the occupied Palestinian territories, come to terms with the fact that the IDF has a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy that has caused a huge number of innocent loss of life, a so-called pre-emptive strategy that is supposed to protect innocent Israeli lives but in the end causes innocent Palestinian casualties. The IDF does not have the moral highground here.

At 9:52 PM, Blogger Esther said...

I'd take you a bit more seriously if you had the guts to sign in, anonymous.


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